Current thread: Mythic forums > General > How to see if more than one group will be formed
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| Author | Message |
WarWorld
11/22/2011 7:29:08 AM | With new people page it does not tell you if you will be in more that one group. I think knowing this information is IMPORTANT!!!. |
Legion
11/22/2011 8:09:10 AM | I'm going to leave that information unavailable for a while as a test run. I have a few reasons for this.
First, it may not really be needed. As new players begin, they start with just one character and build up slowly. When they start forming multi-group parties for the first time, they can decide whether to kick a guy out to keep them single-group in the future, or play with 2+ groups. Consider that with parties being saved, there will be very little need to form new parties. There is a little up-front work required now for existing players with many characters, like yourself, but once you get your groups formed the way you like them it shouldn't be as big a problem.
Secondly, I am going to be adding bonuses for parties the more adventuring they do together. As they get more familiar with each other they will see all sorts of benefits. This will be another reason many players are not going to want to be constantly breaking up old parties and creating new ones.
Thirdly, maybe most importantly, I'm not sure that I like how much of a science group-formation can become. Although the numbers given were sometimes inaccurate, in a lot of cases you could tweak a group right down to the last half a point. Rather than a time consuming and mechanical trial-and-error system, I would prefer to see party formation as more of an art. Skilled players will be able to recognize good parties by looking at things like race, alignment, charisma, leaders, gender, and everything else that might someday go into group sizing. And they often will not be perfectly optimized -- which is a very good thing in my opinion. Anything that gives a skilled player a leg up over a less skilled player is a good thing. There is no reason players need a tool that allows them to "max-tweak" every single party to form a single-group powerhouse party.
Fourth, multi-group parties aren't a big deal. If you went over by accident just have a guy sit at the start room and hang out, or even send him home from turn 1. Or use him to scout, or (as I'll do a lot) sit him on a well when you pass it, so you don't have to retrace 23 levels of dungeon to find the well you skipped at the beginning. However you handle the extra guy(s), these all effectively ignore him and you're back to a single-group party; you can adjust the saved party next time to exclude the extra guy if you like. Or, better yet, start using 2+ groups in your adventures. There are a LOT of benefits to this and these benefits get larger and more numerous as more features get added. Having a group of range-0 specialists is a big help, as is an archer/magic group, and a back-row healing/support group to shuffle guys into and out of the fighting when its hard going. Sometimes there are multiple monster groups at the same time and being able to pin them or surround them can be a huge help too. You don't need to use multi-group parties (just send them home) but its really not the end of the world if you wind up with one accidentally. Some people prefer it. I wouldn't dream of doing mythic adventures with 5 characters, but with 50 its usually a breeze, and the rewards more than make up for the time needed.
Fifth, it helps keep the screens a little cleaner, and makes things a little bit less confusing when you're learning the game.
So in summary, there is a good chance I will put that party-optimization tool back in. But I'm going to leave it out for a month or two just to see how it feels to not have it available. |
Legion
11/22/2011 8:59:59 AM | follow up:
I broke down and put all the formulas for calculating group size in the help files, for those interested in uber-tweaking groups. I guess 5 reasons to keep it secret weren't enough. Enjoy! |
WarWorld
11/22/2011 9:34:16 AM | Legion all valid points, my counter points. I have high level chars that are short on cash so I am frequently reshuffling groups based on life points left and cash on hand. Since you can not cast spells on characters outside your group having cleric in another group does always help the lead group getting hammered and switching members between combats doesn't always work out. Final reason i currently still suck at running multi parties. |
killertofu
11/24/2011 2:33:00 AM | I disagree! We need a way to see how a group is formed and where each guy will be in a party. I have lost countless adventures do to bad party form. A lot of it was me learning the game but a lot of it was the game just being cruel. We have a lot of thing to consider when forming a group and even more when forming a party. Everything from XP to number a clerics left at home to what level of dungeons they can do. It is bad enough we have to face “random” group formations within a party. We need all the help we can get with forming a party. As it stands now i have to do 10 or more introductory dungeons, not to find a good group, but to find a party that will not have a worthless groups.
As for your reasons to leave out the party size table:
You first is flat out wrong. With it as a new player I know why a group had room for 2, 6 or even more guys. I did not have help files. I don't like hiding things from lazy players, the table made things fast and simple.
I like your Second but i would like to see the bonuses to the group and not the party.
I'm split on your third. I don't mind the “science” of group forming but don't like the mechanical try and try again system, I have to go thru to find a a good party. A good player needs to look at everything from: class skills hp sp xp ect.. and not where the game will put my guys.
For me multi group parties are a big deal. When I have a single guy to swap out it is not that bad but when I have to reform all groups every time it is just not worth it.
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Legion
11/25/2011 1:01:42 PM | You make some good points. Especially about poor auto-group forming within a party. Maybe there needs to be an intermediate screen when you start an adventure for group formation in any multi-group party. Players who don't care could just click "continue" past it, but most people (myself included) would take the time to arrange people into their optimal starting groups. Pre-saved parties should be also be able to save the group layout here as well so that you wouldn't need to rethink it each time. I'll see about making such a tool soon. |
Dark Realm
11/25/2011 11:01:39 PM | ok dont give us the exact stats just to know it is one or more groups works for me...also a deselect all on people would be nice too.
one of the last things i think any of us wants is the highly improbable situation of when it forms a multi group adventure and there is a group of 6 and a group of 1 ... and that 1 guy is all alone with a nasty enemy monster group right on top thats gets that nice fluke daze or paralyzation... |
Legion
11/26/2011 10:01:58 AM | What I'm picturing at this point is that when you click the "start adventure" button (NOT randoms .. those you're stuck with the poorly randomized group setups .. the price to pay for all the extra XP, skill points, and treasure) the adventure does not immediately start.
Instead it will take you to a new screen that will be a pain to create :) where it shows all your guys exactly as they are on adventures. Meaning their little character boxes, all sorted into columns or something with the default grouping. It will have the group-space table visible for each group, and you'll be able to drag/drop (or something like that) guys from one group to another (if they fit!) and add groups and what not. There will also be a "cancel adventure" button if you decide that its a bad party. Also a "save groups" button for default party grouping.
On the people page itself I will add a "select all" and "deselect all." I can add a "group counter estimator" as well but I'm not sure I want to since it isn't always accurate. Clever players can always group their guys more efficiently than the computer, particularly if you have +charisma or +leadership gear to swap on/off. I'd probably rather leave it all up to the players and not put a counter there. It would mean an extra step if you had to keep trying combos and canceling out of the "starting groups" page but really its not that hard to save groups that you like, or maybe "core" groups sections. Like have some key 3 guys with a name like "NN with 22.5 space available" as the party name or something so you can easily know who will fit to round out the party without having to test it. I'll start working on this stuff next week and see where it goes. |
Dark Realm
11/26/2011 11:42:10 AM | well..........that sounds excellent :)code a little more and it sounds like i can play tetris with my charcters :P but seriously sounds good...other option/idea....if the group is so ridicoulously bad (all 4hp wizards) together have some extra good bonus... *watches 5 wizard noobs walk off down the road to there mythic adventure "good luck happy huntin"......."seriously they wont make it back 5 to 1 odds? any takers?" |