Current thread: Mythic forums > Technical > *** new speed ***
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Legion
11/24/2012 8:51:27 PM | As promised, here is a thread for discussing the new speed rating.
The updates basically said why I am taking the time to do this. I will add that this is a really wonderful chance to rebuild a critical system after so much playing has been done to nudge certain game balance issues here and there as needed. For example, dexterity is now weighted slightly less for attack speed which is great since it was so important before that low-dex characters were borderline unplayable. Or for another example, the speed rating of shields is less impactful now making the larger shields viable choices for more characters.
Ok, let me get right to it.
INITIATIVE:
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Each turn every person is assigned an initiative score equal to d5 + S where "S" is a random number between 0 and your fully modified speed score. Rounding down, always. So for example a character with a modified speed of 0 would have an initiative of 1-5, while a character with a speed of 100 (yes, they exist) would have an initiative of 1 to 104. And a character with a speed of -10 would have an initiative of -9 to 1, which would mean as you will see below that he will almost never act.
As you are aware (unless you are a new player, in which case just don't even bother reading this until you have played a while. Seriously.) each turn initiative counts down from the highest score to 1, and your first action occurs on the segment equal to your initiative (hereafter called "init"). So if your init is 0 or less, you never go at all. If your init is 35, your first action goes on 35, and so forth. Now, and this part is new: subsequent actions will occur on init-10, init-20, init-30, and so forth for as long as you are able to act. Currently this is only relevant for attacking, since any non-attacking action uses up the entire turn regardless of what init you had. So if you choose to cast a spell, or ungroup, you will not get second (or third, etc.) actions even if your spell is cast at init 11+. Note that an init of 10 still gets one action, since your next one would be at 0 and that is impossible, but an init 11+ will result in 2 (or more as appropriate) actions. I suspect in the future different actions will have different lengths. I can forsee special attacking skills that require less than 10 segments, or spells with shortened casting times allowing for multiple spells (or other actions) in a single turn, and so forth. But for now, 1 action per turn on your init segment except for attacking which gives multiple attacks on init, init-10, init-20, etc.
Note that just because you have a speed of 65 doesn't mean you will go 6 times every single turn. A random "1" on your d65 check will mean you just get one attack that turn. So even though your fast characters all look crazy fast with these high speed scores, remember that even a guy with a speed of 130 might just go once. Of course he almost might go 14 times .. and should average around 7 attacks per turn.
CALCULATIONS:
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Everyone has a base speed of -30. And yes, that number has been painstakingly arrived at through a lot of calculating and don't say it should be 0, because that is just as arbitrary as -30 here, and wouldn't satisfy all the balancing demands needed to make this work. Here is a quick list of standard modifiers:
-30 base
+2 per point of dexterity
+2 per skill in the weapon you are wielding
+5 per "attack speed" skill
+5 per magical "speed" effect
+5 per speed rating of the weapon you are wielding
-3 per point of armor or shield "-1 speed" mod
and finally, a more complicated calculation for your weight carried. Subtract a value equal to (weight*30 / strength^2) for encumberance.
This is also modified by things such as fatigue (-1 per point) or stunning (-10 or more per stun) or other relevant effects, conditions, or modifiers in battle. Note the "or more" I mention per stun. So I lied a little bit when I said this is a lot simpler. A few special effects can alter your speed score by a percentage rather than a constant amount. This makes sense in a lot of cases when you think about it, so there is a function to handle those cases but that is more math than we need to get into at this point.
Closing remarks
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So a few things to note. First of all, since we're picking a random number from 0 to max-speed for init, each +20 points you can add to your speed will give an average of +1 attack per turn when dealing with higher speeds. So a lot of character-building decisions can be framed in the manner of "how many attacks will this add/remove?" For instance, increasing your dexterity one point (+2 speed - see above) will, on average, give you 0.1 more attacks each turn. This is generally more than it used to be, since it now takes 10 points of dexterity to yield an additional attack (again, looking at averages). Before, 10 dex points would be +5 speed (when it took 15 to give each new attack) so you can see that the impact is much higher for dexterity now. For those of you paying attention you'll notice that above I said that dex is less critical now. Good memory. The reason is that there is no multiplier for highly skilled characters that compounded that dex bonus. 10 dex points now is +1 attack on average, period, for any character of any skill. Cleaner and simpler, yes? You can make similar comparisons for every other effect now, which will really help in character planning.
Weapon speed is more important. A 4-point speed differential between two weapons is a full extra attack per turn. That is a pretty big deal. Way bigger than before. But again, without the strange compounding that high-skilled heroes used to get. So low level guys will probably pay a fair bit of attention to weapon speed, while very high level guys it will no longer be so critical once their speed becomes defined primarily by their skills. Same for dex, really, its a nice change.
Armor and shield penalties are likewise less impactful for higher level characters. Before -5 speed mods from armor/shield could cripple a built-for-speed character since it would compound with skill. Now, its just a straight up -15 to your speed score. Which is of course about 3/4 less of an attack each turn. That is a big deal for a slow character, but someone going 2 or 3 times a turn (or more) will now probably decide that the defense value of the armor is much more important than that third or fourth attack.
Magical speed is still quite helpful, every +4 points adding a full attack (on average).
Oh yeah, the skill change is small but nice. Before you would get a speed point every other level of weapon proficiency, which was annoying because the following level you would gain no speed. It also made the "attack speed" skill less economical since you could usually get better better results from weapon specialization. That part is probably still true, but a straight +2/level for weapon profs makes each skill level worth as much as the one before it while (marginally) increasing the need for the dedicated attack speed skill for true speed specialists.
Finally, the weight thing. Weight carried used to seem fairly all-or-nothing. Strong characters never needed to consider it, while weak characters were all too often crippled by it. Well, weak characters are still crippled by it. But everyone might give weight a little thought now, which is great. Its a nice balance to reducing the impact from armor speeds. It never sat well with me that the big armors would slow down everyone equally. Now, in most cases their main effect on speed will be from weight for characters below exceptional strengths.
One last observation. While you'll see (or read) that each +20 speed gives an extra attack that is really only true at the higher scores, because of the "other" d5 thrown into the mix. While a 0 speed character will act each turn (barring a stunning blow or fatigue or whatever) a speed 20 character will not average 2 attacks per turn. Work out the math yourself, or just go with the guideline that averaging 2 attacks per turn happens around a speed of 30. So, then, 40 will be about 2.5 attacks/turn, 50 will be about 3 att/turn, 60 will be about 3.5, 70 will be about 4, and so on and so forth. Going the other way, you'd think a speed of 20 would be about 1.5 attacks per turn but its actually a bit higher than that. And even at speed 10, you will still get an occasional second action. Once you get below 0 though, things fall apart fast. A guy with a -5 speed will not act most turns, and a -10 speed will almost never act. But there is always a chance! Even a -1000 speed guy (from demon weakening or something) will still have a (very very very) tiny chance to act. |
Legion
11/24/2012 9:08:24 PM | Two more things. First, characters with strength scores below the minimum for a weapon will suffer -5 speed per point difference.
And second, while this looks well thought out (hopefully -- since I thought about it a lot) I will almost certainly decide to make some adjustments both before implementing it fully and then again after its been in play for a while. Any of those numbers are subject to change. I like all the round numbers but if the dex mod would be better at 2.1 or 2.4 or whatever per point instead of 2 I might do that. Or if the base speed should be -23 or -34.825 or whatever, it could happen. So I guess I'm saying don't necessarily go sell all your gear and re-outfit for maximum tweaking of the "new speed" unless you're ok with the fact that its probably not in its final form here.
Ok, three things. Just a reminder that none of this is "live" yet. The newspeed scores are purely informational right now. The current system is unchanged at this time. Don't panic! |
11/25/2012 4:16:33 AM | I didnt see anything about fighter types getting any sort of speed bonus. Do they, or are all characters at the same level? Would it not be more reasonable to just taper off bonuses for higher stats? Yes, more programming, but a simple x per stat point doesnt work well at higher levels, especially when you dont have an upper limit. I can understand using skill points to advance, but limiting what a character can start off with would be a good base. Spells. Some of the more powerful spells, should take more time to cast. Even possibly full rounds. Being one that has yet to get the funds to use to recruit a new character, I will say that you may need to adjust the lower end of the speed. Having characters that can not do anything in an adventure because of bad die rolls (such as bad dex/str and init) really pulls the fun out of playing. To retreat/flee, you would have to pull all the characters out of a group and leave the one that cannt do anything there. Yes it is a valid tactic, but it may be your only healing/spellcaster/repair guy. Will the speed factor add into normal movement in the adventure? Does this mean characters that normally evade gonna be affected so as to miss their chances due to a lack of speed? |
Legion
11/25/2012 7:28:40 AM | Good questions.
No one will have negative speed to start. A fist is a speed 6 weapon, for example, so your starting speed is +30 (fist) - 30 (base) + dex*2 with no other mods. So even a 3 dex character will have a speed score of +6. No one has to have a negative speed, ever. It will take some work to teach monsters not to use equipment that makes their speed negative, but I hope to work on that today.
No class gets natural speed bonuses. But fighters will always be faster at higher levels than wizards, for example, because they will have the cheap weapon skills and speed skills that will give them multiple attacks as they advance.
I don't feel that attribute bonuses should taper off. If you can somehow get a 30 dex character, I am comfortable with him getting +1 attack per turn compared to an identical 20 dex character (who, in turn, has +1 attack compared to a 10 dex character). I think this is realistic and not unbalancing.
Spells -- absolutely. I really like the idea of casting times for spells with some being able to cast multiple times per turn and some bigger ones taking possibly multiple turns. That will be a project unto itself someday, but is outside the scope of this weeks speed adjustment. But its a great idea and I hope to get to it eventually.
Movement rate is not calculated from the speed score. It is, as it turns out, closely related though. Dexterity and weight carried do factor heavily into your move rate, as do strength and constitution and a few lesser factors.
Once I get all the speed adjustments on the character page under the speed label you'll find that you will be able to make the changes needed to get everyone up to positive speeds. Characters with bad str and dex will be a bit more limited to lighter armor and faster weapons than before, at least until they gain some skills, but I think that is a change for the better. In fact, going back to your class-specific question, this ties in well. Wizards are often weaker, and will rarely be learning +strength skills, heavy armor, or weapon and speed skills, so they will often need to focus on light-weight low-penalty equipment items like robes or cloth and leather armors. Fighters, with their high strengths, will be able to use a wider range of armor and weapons right from level 1, and as they advance will have no trouble using heavier weapons and armor even while often getting multiple attacks per turn. |
Legion
11/25/2012 9:54:10 AM | Dealing with monsters has stalled this project a bit. Many monsters have low dexterity scores. What to do with an ogre with a 4 dex, for example? Even with no items he would have a base speed of (-18 + wpnspd*5). With a speed 6 fist, that is not a problem, but it doesn't seem reasonable that he can't pick up a big ogre club and whack a guy from time to time.
Players can readily outfit their characters to avoid these problems but monsters highlight the lack of realism here. There are three separate issues at play.
1) dexterity reliance
2) weapon speeds
3) desirability for flexibility without enabling everyone to get too many attacks
As I said above I like the dexterity reliance even though it is clearly problematic. Luckily I think I can find a solution the retains the dex bonuses. The weapon speed thing is a big one. I see a lot of ways to change weapon speeds for the better.
For instance, consider a highly trained hero with super-human strength. Or a trained hobgoblin, ogre, barbarian, etc, where arm- and wrist-strength are non-factors. Put him in a battle against an adversary with at least reasonable combat training (like most characters and monsters should have). Over one minute of sparring, will our hero be able to strike more blows with a longsword, a shortsword, or a dagger? Logic dictates that the longer weapon will have a chance to score more hits.
When I first set up weapon speeds, the "strike speed" for lack of a better term was a major factor. I reasoned that swinging a two handed battle axe takes more time than the jabbing of a sword or spear. This might be true, but I'm not sure how relevant it really is. Since a turn is considered to be 10 seconds, "strike speed" probably isn't very significant. A high level barbarian in a melee with that battle axe would probably have plenty of opportunities to attempt multiple strikes in a turn, in fact you can even envision such an athlete attempting an attack every second or even faster which would be 10+ attacks per turn. In that light, strike speed doesn't seem like much of a limiting factor.
This begs the question, in the hands of a competent user, is there any inherent difference in attack speeds between different weapons? I can't help but feel like there is. In a one-on-one duel a trained man with a spear held in both hands is more or less unattackable by a foe with a hatchet. Sure, the hatchet-man can try to knock the spear aside and rush the spear-man, but a skillful spear-man will just step backward (or even to the side) while certainly getting a good jab in (if not several). But now I'm looking at techniques and weapon ranges. A more apples-to-apples comparison might be an axe vs a club vs a sword, all used in the same slashing attack. The issue here is probably one of strength. A club needs to be swung harder to deliver a killing blow (particularly through plate armor for example) than an axe or sword. This won't matter if you are strong enough, but it might matter to the majority of combatants. What I am getting at is the min-strength requirement may need a really big change. What if, for example, the "min" strength of a weapon was actually the strength at which the weapon could be used effortlessly for extended periods of time delivering armor-piercing blows without requiring unusual "wind-ups" or other technique adjustments. Someone with a strength of 13 or 14 can probably handle a broadsword effectively, but someone with a strength of 18 will surely be able to make more attacks in 10-second turn due to stronger arms/shoulders/wrist/forearms that could enable damaging blows to be struck without a full weapon retractment and stance adjustment for a new high-damage slash or stab. And someone with a strength of 21, probably even faster. But a point will still come where more strength would not speed up the attacks. For a broadsword, I can't imagine a strength 30 ogre would be any faster than a strength 25 ogre. For something like a light spear, I bet a strength 15 fighter is no faster than a strength 10 fighter. In other words, one part of the "weapon speed" problem can be handled by setting very high strength ratings on each weapon, and giving small speed penalties for operating below that. For example, what if all weapons are a base "+0" speed -- in this scenario, the -30 base speed mod for all people would be removed .. effectively making all weapons "speed 6". But if the broadsword has a "strength rating" of 25 and every point of strength under that imposes a -1 penalty (for example) then, to compare it to the current ruleset, it would act as a "speed 4" weapon in the hands of a str 15 character, or a "speed 2" weapon in the hands of a str 5 character, or a full "speed 6" weapon in the hands of a str 25 character. I like the idea here, obviously the numbers need some work and it should not be a linear curve. Something like 1.3^(rating - actual) as a penalty could work, so almost no impact if you are near the rating in strength but prohibitive if you get very far from it. A good formula is the easy part if the concept is right.
So that implies all weapons are equal except for a strength rating. This is one part of a likely 3-part solution. I like it though, since it allows stronger characters to use heavier weapons without being at a speed disadvantage to a weakling with a smaller version of the exact same weapon. This has always been a reality problem as some of you have pointed out. Why would your str 22 barbarian with a big heavy battle staff be unable to attack as quickly as a str 10 grunt with a lighter but functionally-identical quarterstaff? This will correct that.
I think a second part of weapon speed is going to have to consider weapon reach and attacking versatility. This will be a lot of work but I should probably assign every weapon a length/reach value as well as an "attack style" value. As I've mentioned a few times now, and as anyone who has spent time sparring with friends can attest, the person with the longer reach will usually have more opportunities to make a potentially damaging attack. This should probably be implemented as a differential between you and your target, however, not as a weapon modifier. For instance, a spear-vs-spear battle should probably see the same number of strikes each turn as a knife-vs-knife. But in a spear-vs-knife situation, the spear should get more chances. This might be best handled by action delay times. I'd planned to make every attack take 10 segments, but this could be the perfect way to handle the reach disparity. In the spear-vs-knife the spear attacks might each run just 5 or 6 ticks off the init clock, while the knife attacks might run off 15 or 20. Although this does get somewhat complicated. If your range is 0, for example a panther has jumped on your chest, then the knife attacks would be very fast, only take a few ticks per blow, while a spear strike would be virtually impossible.
Ok, so weapon reach, both absolute and comparative, are clearly extremely relevant to attacking speed, but there are situations where longer is better and others where shorter is better. A weapon out of context cannot be called "faster" or "slower" by virtue of length. This means it can also be shelved as a later project when more combat complexity is warranted. For now, for simplicity, it turns out that weapon length is not necessary to consider when calculating attack speed.
What about versatility? If one man has a two-handed club, and another man has a two-handed sword of the approximate same weight and length, who attacks faster? In classic full-force slashing attacks they are surely equal. But the sword can also hurt you with a fast max-reach slice that could cut open your leg or chest while a club can't do effective damage with that blow. The sword could also kill with a piercing jab even if it only penetrates 6 inches, while a stabbing club is going to be a lot less deadly. What I'm getting at is that it seems like the club is only doing full-damage blows when it can line up a big swinging attack, while the sword can do those but also will get opportunities for quick jabs or less committing slices at long range. In fact unlike the spear-vs-knife range debate, its hard to see any equalizing scenarios where the 2h club is faster than the 2h sword.
So I think I might be able to (1) use minstr as a new "strength rating" dictating how much each weapon slows you due to your strength and (2) change the "speed" score to a "versatility" score instead, giving small speed bonuses to weapons that seem more capable of making killing blows with a variety of techniques. A slashing+stabbing weapon might deserve a "+5 speed" mod while slashing-only gets none. This is really minor I guess. The rating could also incorporate other things too like quality or magical bonuses. A higher quality more balanced weapon might deserve a slight speed boost, a crude weapon a bit slower, and magic certainly should make it faster. But in essence, I can set all weapons to have a speed rating of 0 except in cases where they are above/below average quality, unusually versatile (e.g. swords might all get a blanket +1 compared to clubs), or magical.
The result is a little less variability in weapon speeds. This is nice, since it lets me bump up the base speed (to 0, presumably) and makes for a more realistic and better balanced game while also solving the initial problem of low-dex monsters unable to use their weapons. I'll work on the numbers and post an updated plan here, probably on tuesday.
The third part of the attack speed issue was going to be a separate feature but may be needed as integrated solution. Basic fighting styles. A no-mods "normal" setting will be the default for all characters and monsters, but you (and monsters) should be able to choose other settings as desired or required. There should be an "aggressive" setting that allows for a higher attack and speed scores at the expense of a lot of defense, or a "defensive" setting that reduces your attack and speed but gives a big boost to defense. There could be several options, actually, including a "all-out attack" setting or something for that hapless 5-dex crude-2h-club wielding ogre, where you might get a full extra attack (+20 speed), probably at higher damage, at a cost of a massive defense loss and maybe even an attack penalty too (an attack that obvious is easier to avoid or block). Having these options would let monsters (or even characters) with really hideous equipment/attribute/skill combinations to still have options to get their speeds above 0 to fight.
It looks like this speed update is going to take a long time to complete! But I am really confident the game will be a lot better for it once its done. |
11/25/2012 5:49:35 PM | Will you start having actions interrupted if they are hit before the creature gets to move, such as casting a spell or getting to even swing back? Not sure if its like that now. Also, are you going to add in spells that increase/decrease speed? One suggestion would be limit the number of attacks to the dex stat itself, though suggest a maximum lid. Maybe like dex/2. The problem with large weapons is recovery of balance and such when swung. A 2 handed sword takes a few moments to change the direction of momentum, while a dagger would be much easier to plunge at someone in the same time. And weapon length can be negated by stepping inside the range of the threat, not safe, but I would prefer a cumbersome stick without much swing then the actual blade, while forcing them to dodge rabbit punches with a dagger. Weapon weight vs strength (maybe dex as well) should determin how 'fast' a weapon can be utilized. As your example of the 2 handed club vs the 2 handed sword, you could take that into account by not only the normal damage done, but maybe increasing the possibility of a more damaging hit with the sword. If the club does a 'crit' on a roll of 20 on a d20, then the sword might do a 'crit' on an 18-20. Granted you can get really complicated and make them more/less effective against certain armors. And there is one thing that would count for speed with a club. They dont need to hit with a specific edge, where a sword/axe would. The third issue you list would go great if you use the rage/enrage skill/spell. Put the tank skill as a defensive mode, since you are defending everyone you can per se. |