Current thread: Mythic forums > Strategy & Advice > a better idea?
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Legion
5/7/2012 8:16:02 PM | The lack of level 6+ deaths is still an issue for the game. In fact, it is the major issue, since it is the one element that is critically unbalanced. You may have noticed I removed the occasional wrong-level adventures, so something is needed. After talking with some of the larger players, it was agreed that including more forced and unavoidable deaths would hurt the enjoyment of the game, and that the rewards are already sufficient for the higher level adventures -- even though they don't do them! In other words, forcing them into more fatal scenarios wouldn't be any fun, but there is no incentive that can get them to voluntarily take more risks.
So a carrot won't work, nor will a stick. There is still the other side of the proverbial coin, however. We could make it harder to progress unless you undertake more dangerous adventures. For instance, I could record the difficulty of the last 20 adventures each character has completed (meaning, all monsters killed). If one of them was dangerous, then that character is taking frequent enough risks to push himself to the limit and he would gain experience points at the regular rate. But if his toughest adventure was only very hard he might only be learning at a 75% rate, or 50% at hard and 25% at normal. If in the past 20 adventures he completed, he hasn't done one single adventure more challenging than easy he would no longer be improving from his experiences and thus no xp would be gained. This would have a nice side effect in that if you felt that a character was too weak, he could continually do easy adventures to pile up more cash without advancing to the next level. This is actually a good thing for weak characters, since they can improve their equipment without advancing toward the inevitable adventure-level jump that comes when you level up. Notice that I didn't mention deadly or mythic adventures. I think if a character has completed a deadly recently he could not only get the full xp value for his adventures, but have a +50% modifier to post-adventure skill point checks as well. If you are really pushing yourself, you will learn more quickly! Likewise, a completed mythic adventure in your last 20 outings would earn double (+100%) bonus skill point chances.
I suspect something along these lines will be implemented soon, and if anyone has great ideas for fine-tuning this, suggestions are welcome. |
Dragon Masters
5/7/2012 11:49:41 PM | Well, they should get no experience if they dont complete so many adventures of the appropriate level. 1 out of 20 sounds low to me, but then I dont have any characters above level 3 yet. Another suggestion would be to have skills slide if they dont do so many appropriate level adventures. How hard is it to kill an ant with a size 12 shoe? Also drop the amount of items/money found if running the lower then appropriate level. Another thought is put in some real nasty creatures that only pop up when a level x character(s) go into a dungeon. Have them seal off the exit so the character cannt run away, but has to find an exit/fight their way out. I do like the idea of rewarding people that do take the extra risks. I think it should be expanded, since that means more characters are likely to expire quicker as they push for the bonus. |
Clappendectomy
5/8/2012 5:19:52 AM | On the whole, I think this is a good idea. Keeping the game challenging is good for everyone. The one potential downside I see is that within a clan, the stronger characters will pull ahead of the weaker ones if they get dramatic xp rewards, which might hurt clan cohesiveness.
I think Dragon Masters has a good idea also... maybe there is a way to make certain adventures "do or die", or at least much harder to retreat from. |
Sardonic
5/8/2012 6:38:42 AM | I first gotta say that I love how you are spending the time and attention to try and do this a way everyone likes, my hat goes off to you. I agree with your last challenges idea. I think it would be hard to fine-tune though given that even some characters who are the same lvl, are not on the same skill/ability lvl.
Perhaps we could make it so like the experience multi, each difficulty lvl has its own ratings and each character must be able to amass a certain amount of "difficulty points" in a given amount of runs or his exp and skill points then start to taper off. With this you could also be giving the extra bonus for those with more "difficulty points" than required. I hope that made sense, I just got up. I will think on it more. |
Legion
5/8/2012 7:21:18 AM | Thanks for the feedback so far guys, all three of you have excellent ideas/comments as far as I'm concerned.
I do like the idea of harder-to-exit adventures. There are a few easy steps I could take for that, and a few complex ones as well, and I will try to nudge things in that direction a bit. Shorter create wall durations would, for instance, make it riskier to just wall yourself in and flee. Monsters that could freeze you in place or teleport you about the map could be scary too. These ideas are very good ones, and I've thought about and talked about many of them before. They do all tend to have the same problem in that they will either tend to drive people into easier adventures, or else stink of "forced/random death" which many players (excluding myself!) seem to find distasteful.
I think those ideas ARE very much needed and I will strive to implement those, and others, that spice up the threat of the more difficult adventures. The key, of course, and point of this thread, is how to get people into those more difficult adventures in the first place.
Sardonic and Dragon Masters I think you both hit upon an improvement I hadn't considered. The "1-in-20 is all you need" does seem a bit crude. One mythic and then the next 19 simples earn you bonuses? How fair is that? I like Sardonic's "difficulty points" idea to address that. I'll work out some formulas when I get a chance, hopefully today but this week is extremely busy for me. But I like the idea of a tapering off of difficulty points. I don't know what we should call this. Hero points perhaps? It could consider the last 20 adventures (or more, or less, but 20 seems like as good a number as any I guess) but weight them so that the most recent carries full value while the adventure you did 20 outings ago counts for less. Someone who does hard every time and just completed a mythic should see a much greater reward than someone who usually does very easy adventures but completed a mythic 19 tries ago.
The rewards and penalties of high/low hero points could then be adjusted and refined over time to produce the desired effects. At the very high end I think bonus skill points would be the best rewards, and earned-xp penalties (including a fairly broad "no xp" range at the bottom) for the low end. But other things could be thrown in there too. Temporary boosts/hits to max hp for example (people who think they suck probably do die more easily, and people who are known heroes are surely going to "just not die" like in the movies). Or even temporary modifiers to skills themselves for exceptional losers/heroes.
To clappy's point about the strong pulling ahead of the weak: I'm entirely ok with that. Run them less times per day-change or mix up your groups from time to time. The phenomena of your top guys pulling away is one of the ways clan growth is supposed to be capped/limited -- the current problem of course being that when a top group pulls away it doesn't ever die off the way I want it to. |
Dark Realm
5/8/2012 8:37:50 AM | "harder-to-exit".. currently groups are teleported in and can flee somehow anytime they want to. this could change to no flee without some magic..teleport..ring of fleeing.. or actually having found a exit..which we know can be blocked with monster groups in the way.
The dangerous and like adventures can be extremely difficult and nearly suicidal especially at the start if surrounded by several nasty groups. Im sure most people have had to wall and flee at some point of risk losing entire groups. Remove the flee option and im sure we would see a higher death rate with dangerous missions then anyone wanted.
So i propose even more work for Legion :)
Remove the flee option without magic/exits.
Add in scrolls (one shot use items/spells)way to add in cheap fleeing magic at start--see below
Add in fleeing magic/magic items (at start
make it cheaper then normal to offset few people having it) Even put 1 item on each character as a family heirloom(scroll)?
Enable monster on monster group combats.(maybe only for traditional racial enemies ie. orcs vs elves..goblins vs dwarves..)At a start wouldnt it be nice to be watching them smash each other for a change? or encountering a heavily wounded group of ogres reeling from a fight with stone giants?
Figure out a hero point/notoriety system (doing a sufficient amount of difficulty a day change--though id suggest in a week allowing for healings etc) that needs to be achieved to prevent various penalties. Which could include temporary/permanent loss of XP or temporary/permanent degradation of skills, spending clan gold to protect from raiders or fighting off actual raiders on clan world, repairing damage done to clan world holdings, losing random item to thieves..
Bonuses i like the temporary boosts almost like a a entire clan bless +5% to everything for first adventure after a successful..clan week...yes code in a clan week too 1 day a week clerics are unavailable due to temple obligations.. ;)
just a few of my fever induced ideas :)
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Dragon Masters
5/8/2012 10:22:57 AM | Using wall of stone to block yourself in should negate the ability to flee. If you have nothing but walls around you, how would you flee? Now if a monster could cast it so you cannt move away, now thats nasty. Would suggest shortening the duration for monsters. Maybe a crumble stone spell or something to counter act the wall. Also not everyone has access to walls of stone or alot of other things like it. Only issue I would have with lessening the ability to flee is the low level characters. Lost more then a few when the only exit is the grey square one and not being able to get even close. Just a point. I had suggested to Legion about a spell and an ability called enrage/rage. That runs along the lines of things swinging on anything close to it, including fellow monsters/characters. Once you get the clan world raids going, you could hit the higher level characters that dont run the appropriate levels with more and harder creatures. Put it down as some sort of reputation. Wont risk getting hurt, you target the cowards more then someone that is willing to face a full grown dragon by themselves. |
Dark Realm
5/8/2012 11:05:44 AM | agree fully with the no flee when totally blocked in. a counter to walls would be good also could just give them hit points and toughness and monsters could bash there way through...eventually. and yes removing or lessening flee would not be good at lower levels. maybe add more exits actually in adventures and only allow flees if within sight of one. |
Legion
5/8/2012 8:54:48 PM | As a first "hero formula" sample, every character will now see a descriptive word in purple under his/her name on the character page. There are 7 words. Right now they have no game effect at all, and they will only reflect adventures from this point forward. All characters (including future recruits) begin at the cautious level. The 7 words are Craven, Cowardly, Cautious, Brave, Heroic, Legendary, and Mythic. These levels reflect the difficulty of the adventures you have been running recently. Bonus credit is given for random adventures and for completing adventures. Fleeing gives a penalty. A heavy weighting is assigned to the highest challenge level completed recently. The proposed future effects of the words would be cumulative 25% multipliers on earned xp for the first 5 words (from 0% at craven thru 100% at heroic). Legendary would be 100% + 1.5x skill point awards and mythic would be 100% + 2x skill point awards. It is actually fairly easy to maintain the higher levels if you mix a few top-level adventures in from time to time and rarely flee. For random-lovers, a steady diet of completed random adventures should see you consistently in the heroic-mythic range as well. This will take a lot of testing to get a sense of where people fall and what adjustments will be needed.
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Dragon Masters
5/10/2012 11:57:32 AM | One question. Is the rating set for the level of the character in question, or is the whole thing based strictly on the level of dungeon you are running? May see a very high turn over rate for new characters since it would be very possible for them to not get past first level if they drop to 0 xp every adventure. Yeah, they can run higher adventures.. |
WarWorld
5/10/2012 12:22:12 PM | Just a thought, while I understand the purpose of this rating I think the lower level characters will get punished too much. if you sart out with average stats I don't see how players will be able to survive first level if they are forced to risk more dangerous levels to make it to the next level in a reasonable amount of time. If I remembe correctly should take 100 adventures to level up. With new system it could take 200 adventures if they maintain cautious level. This is affect playablity and possbily detract new players from staying long enough to level. Could this rating be applied incrementatly? I.e at level 1 it is ignored at level 2 it implemented at 20%, 3 40% and so on so that when you reach level 6, where the issued seems to be, it is fully effective?. |
WarWorld
5/10/2012 12:34:56 PM | Additional points, with doing harder adventures characters who survive will be taking alot more damage requiring more day changes to heal up. This would have a adverse impact on a clan's gold reserves since more day changes will be required to heal up a clan. Not to mention more deaths to higher level characters less chance at having a super healer to do a large number of characters at a day change.
Why fleeing counts four levels less? considering that characters get no xp for fleeing, forcing them to suffer additional xp penalty in future adventures seems to be excessive punishment. |
Legion
5/10/2012 12:59:10 PM | Dragon: hero score is based on difficulty selected, not the actual adventure level itself. As for low level characters, it is clear anecdotally as well as empirically that they can sustain harder difficulty settings than higher level characters. Running a dangerous every 10th adventure with level 1 characters is much safer than doing so with higher level characters. Nonetheless I plan to spend a few days here with Storm Crows or another new clan to see how level 1 clans are affected by the new rules.
Silverlode: fleeing counts 4 levels less so that you can't cheat the system by just loading up a mythic every 20th advenure and insta-fleeing. You still can, but it will only count as a "hard" with the 4-level hit. Also, the big hit encourages people to try to complete more adventures and not flee all the time (like I do). This pressure has already led me to lose a guy I would have fled ordinarily, and any pressure to push people is good at this point. As for the gold issue, don't forget that harder adventures give a lot more treasure. As people have pointed out before, running one adventure per clan day is plenty to get rich, if it is sufficiently difficult. |
WarWorld
5/10/2012 1:11:34 PM | OK can we have a listing of the 7 levels so we can know where we are on the list? Also rather than penalize everyone by starting at cautious I would recommend setting them at the level that gets them 100% of the xp and then let their adventure level selection determine the impact.
And to be clear you only get bonus skill check if you high enough level or do you get additional xp as well?
Also how will being forced to flee from ghosts impact a characters rating? |
Dark Realm
5/10/2012 2:07:51 PM | yeah would truly suck doing a mythic and having someone flee with ghosts near the end.
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Legion
5/10/2012 7:55:00 PM | Read the thread. I already gave the 7 levels a couple posts up. When you hover over your rating it also gives you an exact score and tells you how much is needed to advance.
I prefer starting at cautious and allowing people the challenge and satisfaction of advancing from there. I think people will feel better about moving up, rather than starting at the top and moving down. |
Dark Realm
5/11/2012 12:47:38 PM | back to the ghosts and forced flees..between the added risks needed to maintain decent hero status for XP and forced flees due to fear seems to be low wilpower guys are getting a even shorter end of the stick. i know there are ways around it like moving off low will guys during fights with spooks but that is even more dangerous with the added difficulty...how about charcters affected by flee hide in corner until ghosts are dead then rejoin group? :) |
Canuckistan
5/11/2012 6:15:27 PM | With this new penalty for fleeing (which i do like), I like the idea of those fleeing due to spooks etc ending up in a random area of the dungeon so they do not get penalized as fleeing the dungeon - now they could be anywhere on the map oncluding unexplored areas (due to random running in fear) so would have to find their way back to the group - which means they could encounter monsters on their own...
This would then leave the choice to the clan leader if they will then manually flee and take the penalty or try and avoid the monsters :) |
WarWorld
5/11/2012 7:45:42 PM | This new ranking system just kills the playablity of the game. Lower level characters are not surviving for me at lower level. Either they need more equipment to start or more skill points to spend. Seems at least for me no way I an run level 1 chars at normal level which means I going to have to take xp penality and make it take 50% longer to level up? Not fun at all. |
Legion
5/11/2012 8:08:30 PM | I know this isn't the place for this, but it seems like there are a few people who don't enjoy the level 1 experience too much anymore. For what its worth, I played a fair bit today as a new clan and I didn't feel that much of anything had changed. I really enjoy starting new clans, I like the challenge and the variety you get when you have to make due with what you're given in terms of characters and equipment.
But for people who don't like that, maybe we need an option to start at level 2. Basically you'd create your character and it would have 100xp already, so as soon as you pick your class you could immediately click "level up" and start as a 2nd level character. The question for the community is, those of you who would prefer to start there (I'm guessing silverlode and Dragon Masters would enjoy this option) what would be a fair trade-off? I would think there should be something given up to start as a level 2. Perhaps 1 point off each attribute for example. Those players who take the time to bring their guys up from 0xp (like everyone has to do now) should, IMO, end up with slightly better guys.
Just a thought, this might seem like a terrible idea tomorrow when sober :) |
Dragon Masters
5/11/2012 9:41:37 PM | Actually, unless you start them off with some good skills/equipment, starting off at level 2 is not a good idea at all. If you started that, you may as well just have the button randomly pick weither they just die or level up with random items in their inventory. Honestly, the hero level would be great to start at level 2 possibly 4. Level 1 has enough issues trying to survive when you dont have the min/max equations memorized and adhere to them like a holy grail. I guess it sounds like im against doing the lower level characters, im not. I have been trying to make it more playable to those people that actually do like to fight almost everything they run into. More then a few people have to run the characters others would never even think of using, because its all we got. Once you got money, then you can start the spending for good recruits. You have stated the higher level characters are the ones that you have issues with, but most of what ive seen is how it kills lower level characters that much quicker. Now I say this from a biased point of view, because I havent had anyone survive to level 4 yet, so you can put down my input as someone without the experience of the high levels. Still doesnt change the fact of not knowing the ins and outs makes the game more random for those that are used to killing everything to find the good stuff. |
WarWorld
5/11/2012 10:07:16 PM | I do not like the starting at level 2 option. I would much prefer working up from level 1 but not have to take a long time to do so. I am seeing monsters on level 1 that my chars can't compete with and I would expect the same to happen with starting at level 2 since they may get skills but won't have the equipment to survive. Running level 1 chars at normal level I run into skeletons and I have to flee 80% of the time cause of fatigue saps my ablity to fight. |
Legion
5/12/2012 7:49:11 AM | I know I'm pointing out the obvious, but I've really tried to make it clear that this is NOT the type of game where you can try to kill everything you meet. I've watched silverlode, for example, fight a d6 kobold with a party of two characters, one of whom had 5hp. Obviously if you do that a dozen times, your character will die.
I'll keep brainstorming for more ways to make it easier for level 1s. However, this will never be a game where every fight is winnable. Far from it. |
Legion
5/12/2012 9:37:51 AM | Ok, how about this one. I could create 5 newbie rings, giving +1 thru +5 hp. Then, each recruit would have a chance of having one or two such rings, based on some combo of total and average clan xp. Essentially, a brand new player would have his recruits starting with two of the higher end rings, for a +7-10hp or so per character. Someone who has a dozen level 1 guys, but no one over 20 xp yet, might be in the +5-8hp range or so, and so forth. Someone with a few level 2+ characters might get +1-5hp and by the time people have level 4+ characters they would not have any chance of getting such rings.
The only problem I see here is that new players would learn really bad habits, thinking they could kill everything. But I guess that's no big deal -- they'll either learn or they won't. |
Canuckistan
5/12/2012 9:54:18 AM | silverlode - what i have found useful against skeletons is to disengage, go around a corner and rest until fatigue is down below 4 - then go back and beat on them again - sometimes takes 3 or 4 efforts like that before they are dead.
I have been able to keep a number of lvl 1's alive by grouping in larger groups (up to 3 groups with at least 2 or 3 in each group) - i still have a somewhat high death rate but that is also because i do try and kill everything and that was before the new percentaging :)
The new percentaging isn't bad and really has not affected my way of play - so it takes a few extra adventurs to get experience due to starting at "cautious" - didn't take long for most of my beginners to get to "brave" and i rarely go above normal (and even then only to hard) |
Dragon Masters
5/12/2012 10:25:01 AM | No this isnt a game that every fight is winnable. Problem I see, when you have to run and restart every 3rd monster or so makes the game lose its fun. Low levels you can do quite a few runs before characters need rest. Now as for your example of silverlode. It can be exciting, even on the border of mythical to fight a creature that can kill you like the example. Honestly, a creature with 1 hp doing 6 damage when 2 characters have less then 5 would be a risk worth taking. only 33% chance the creature would kill you outright, with a good chance of killing it before it got the chance.I get upset losing characters when I run into a rat with 2 hip points, and attack of -20, with a 1 damage, yet it takes over 15 hp away from a party that should have killed it in less then 2 rounds, as well as destroying several items. The hp item is an interesting thought for the lower level characters since it does give them a better chance to survive without majorly affecting the higher level characters. The basing it on the average of the clan would be a good thing. The better off the clan is, the more likely it has the funds to get a better recruit. Would suggest limiting them to a few hit point, maybe 4 max. You could base them getting a ring off of their hp. Anything below x would get a y hp ring. Just like the heirloom knife, not all would get it, still making a point to run from things. |
WarWorld
5/12/2012 3:33:46 PM | Legion I don't expect to be able to kill everything and as you can see from history I do have characters die, but if it takes a long time to get to second level people, including me, are going to get bored frustrated and not bother.
Rings an idea, or how about giving new chars an amount of gold to spend on equipment before they go out? like 30? |
Dragon Masters
5/12/2012 9:02:34 PM | I like the idea of having something besides nothing at times, to go adventuring with. I have seen 4 items on a new recruit, but as Ive said before, I dont have the funds to pay for new recruits, so dont know what they start with. A simple knife, plus a piece of armor, such as a shield, or body armor would be real nice, especially on the 4 dex characters some of us are forced to use since they are the only ones we have access to for repairs. Honestly. How many characters level 6+ have died from the new changes? I dont think I have seen a death over level 5, and as someone pointed out, they tended to be summoned creatures at that. Also will reask the question I havent seen answered. What is to be done about characters that flee due to monster abilities, such as the ghost? I can understand leaving it as is, but can also see where some people will get royally screwed from it. Dont know what level they start showing up at, but can see where this will be a big issue. |
Sardonic
5/14/2012 1:56:19 PM | I think if we have decided it is time to cater to those who find it harder to start, we should actually help them. We should put every new character created with 250 coins on them. This is enough to buy a few decent weapons to start with and a few basic armour pieces. We should then also add in a coin multiplier for those in lvl one much like we do for the rookie bonus in the first 2 lvls. Give them double coins in lvl 1-2 and then 1.5X coins in lvl 2-3.
As a few have stated, it is not the lvling that is the hard part, it is staying alive when doing so. I personally have never found this to be an issue but IO can understand it. So giving an added bonus of coins instead of making it quicker to get to the harder monsters, we would be better off.I am ALL for Legions idea of the rookie starting rings, great great stuff. Giving them out based on overall clan exp creates some issues methinks though. Silver is one of the biggest clans, so it in theory wouldnt give him anything. I think instead it should be a clan age thing. If you are under 1 year, you can randomly draw off the all 5 of the rings, if under 2 years, you lose the ability to get the 5hp ring. Also make the rings degrade with lvl if possible and they dissintegrate at lvl 3. Just my two cents, back to work. |
WarWorld
5/14/2012 2:34:29 PM | Boy pick on silverlode ;) While I agree no level 6's have died I think a better question is how many times have then not gotten any XP? If they running 1/2 adventures not giving XP then I think the new system is working. (I still don't like it without a reduction in the needed XP to level). |
WarWorld
5/14/2012 2:46:06 PM | Legion, can we maybe get a change in the rating score for each character so we can see how much the score goes up or down after each adventure? |
Legion
5/14/2012 3:21:58 PM | I hate to shoot down two good ideas, but I'm going to :)
First, silverlode, I decided not to display the amount the hero score changes each adventure. The reason is because I think it would really confuse people. There are several variables to consider and I think display that information would REALLY confuse a lot of people. For example:
Consider two characters that go on a normal adventure with brave hero ratings and hero scores of exactly 60. They have the same xp, they both complete the same adventure, but one has his hero score go up a few points and the other plummets, dropping him to cautious! How is this possible? Well, the guy who went up might have had a recent string of easy adventures under his belt, so the hard one bumps up his recent average and helps his score. The guy who went down might have completed a mythic adventure long ago and it was keeping his score high, but it has finally fallen off the back end of the moving average and accordingly his most challenging adventure might now be the normal he just completed.
In other words, there is no easy way to determine what effect an adventure will have on your hero score and showing post-adventures moves would really confuse a lot of people. Unfortunately the best advice is simply, if you want your score to jump way up, complete a really challenging adventure.
The other good idea I'm not going to implement is giving coins to recruits. While I really like the idea of allowing people to outfit themselves, there is the obvious problem of using that money to ship to the clan via taxation and, once they run dry, dismiss the guys. You could really pile up cash this way and go thru 100s of recruits until you had a superior clan, not the random one that the game is designed for. Some kind of special "newbie coins" where you can buy items but they disappear before you click "next day" would work for this, but thats a bigger project than I have time for at the moment. Maybe someday! |
Dark Realm
5/14/2012 5:47:33 PM | instead of the coins allow a choice of several 'family heirlooms' can help equip and have no value |
Dragon Masters
5/14/2012 11:24:16 PM | Or could just stick them in the store right after making them, and remove any cash after this. 250 sounds high though. I also like the idea of the choice of heirlooms. Would suggest basing it on character stats, ie a stat below say 5 or 6, would get an item from x list. 2 stats would get 1 from y list or possible 2 from x list. Granted, this means more work trying to figure out what is on each list, then making the lists, so might not be a good idea for legion. Everyone should start off with one heirloom item, even if it is just the knife. This should also go for characters with less then say 6 hit points, get an hp item. Make it so they can NOT sell these items if they recieve them. As for the list of what the adventure levels are. What level is considered for say a level 2 character for an average? level 3 character? |
WarWorld
5/15/2012 10:13:38 AM | Legion thanks for responding, but quesiton unless the clan is very small if they try to "milk" the gold from a character won't they be incurring day change rates on the other characters? I think on average a clan that tried to milk starting cash from characters to increase gold reserve would probably incure more expense than the gold they would get. You can only get a new character with a day change no?
Maybe new chars go to shop and have to buy something before they leave? Or have newbie kits created and give to chars once they created based on class? |
Legion
5/16/2012 12:38:33 PM | I'll keep trickling in additional newbie items in cases where characters seem underpowered. In light of all the discussion, I'm not convinced any major changes are needed at this time. A few +hp items might do the trick.
To answer your question Dragon Masters about adventure levels, its related to how many characters go on the adventure. A few level 2s on a simple adventure might only be level 5 or something, but a bigger group of 2s on a mythic should easily hit adventure level 15+. In fact I seem to have loaded up a random dangerous 16 with 26 characters as we speak and most of them are level 2 (some 3s). |
WarWorld
5/16/2012 3:38:21 PM | Oh,
should missions get more time now since characters can be receiving less bv? Or maybe less xp needed? |
Sardonic
5/16/2012 8:26:13 PM | One thing I have noticed is that now with the recent changes, it takes longer to get from lvl 1 to lvl 2. This may be a good thing, I am not sure, but I sure think it would be nice to start new characters at 100% xp collection and have it affected from there. |
Legion
5/16/2012 9:24:32 PM | Sardonic I agree characters should start at heroic. Unfortunately new players will likely see this drop since most newbies seem to do the logical thing which is starting with the easiest adventures. But I guess that is ok .. they will figure it out soon enough I suppose.
Clan Grey raised the point today that the thresholds for hero ratings are too low and looking over the data I agree. Seems like all my guys are either pegged at mythic or heading there really fast. I'll adjust the scale by 5 points and see if that looks a little more reasonable -- the idea here was to slow down the top guys, not speed them up!
edit: I just did those 2 things. Starting characters begin as "heroic" now. And I have shifted the scale up 5 pts. |
Dragon Masters
5/16/2012 11:35:10 PM | What I wanted to know is what level of dungeon should a set level be going into. Such as a level 2 character should be going into a level what dungeon? Yes, I now know that the game will increase the level for more characters in a party. That helps answer part of the question. I know a level 6 should not be in the introductory adventures, but where should they start at? Hard? Dangerous? Stay at home? |
Legion
5/17/2012 6:33:09 AM | Oh, I see. There is some confusion here, and I apologize for lack of better documentation. I'll try to add some text on the main page explaining this.
Adventures are scaled to the number and levels of the characters in the party. Basically, everyone should try to do mythics if possible. Of course, level 1s without equipment are not the same as level 1s with gear, so a starting group I'd probably start at easy for a couple runs, then normal or hard for a while, then depending on how well they work as a team start pushing them up toward their limit. Not everyone can safely run mythics, particularly 0-gp characters, so you might expect 0gp recruits in small groups to top out around hard or very hard. If you can get 10+ of them, with gear, they should start to handle dangerous perhaps. If you get stellar guys with great gear, then a mythic now and then becomes possible.
As a side note, the expectations for characters goes up at the high levels. Running random adventures as I do, I find that level 2 characters can often complete a mythic, but level 6s have a very hard time with them. In fact, you'll never see Greyskull do harder than easy with his top crew of lvl 11s since they are legacy characters and, ironically (since they are the most powerful in the game), extremely underpowered for where modern 11s will be.
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Canuckistan
5/17/2012 8:54:57 PM | This shall make the game interesting for me :) With this increase of 5 extra points for bravery factor, all of mine will likely stay at Cautious lvl, maybe Brave - since I tend to do normal lvl adventures with the occasional hard thrown in if no one is hurt. All my legacy characters did die off when the change in armor came about and original increase of experience needed and that was fine. As far as doing Dangerous or mythic, not likely for me - 99% of my equipment is whatever I scavenge from adventures - very rarely will I buy anything (and only things I have bought so far would be healing potions and occasional weapons if theirs all broke on the adventure). Lol, i have lvl 3 and 4 characters with cotton armor pieces and d4 weapons cause i only use their money for daychanges :) |
Sardonic
5/18/2012 6:40:06 AM | Thank-you for changing the starting rating. Good call on the rating jump too. My top guys were already legendary and all were flying that way. Might be hard to stop the successful people me thinks. |
WarWorld
5/18/2012 7:03:49 AM | Legion,
Just wondering on your data supporting the change in hero levels, was it based on hero levels of characters at a specfic experience level? If so you may want to see whoes clan they belong to cause I know my level 4-6 characters are not near mythic level.
Also how many higher level deaths have occured as a result of this change? I have not seen any besides summoned monsters but I don't look at the recent kill list religously. |
Legion
5/18/2012 9:32:32 AM | Silverlode, I think it is really hard to say if a death occurs specifically because of this change. However, logically, we can prove it to be true.
If characters do harder adventures to maintain the heroic+ ratings, there will be higher death rates, if even a little higher. Simply put, harder adventures mean higher dangers which means more death.
The only other possibility is that players do not start doing harder adventures. This will result in some of these characters having xp multipliers less than 100%. This, logically, means that those characters, on average, must take more adventures to reach the next level than they previously had to. Lets say that those players had a 1-in-1000 adventure chance of dying before. If they don't change the difficulty they run at, they STILL have a 1-in-1000 chance of dying. But, they must take more adventures to reach the next level. Therefore, more will die at each level.
There is no scenario in which this will not increase deaths.
To address the question of levels-vs-ratings, so far it looks like level 3-6 characters are maintaining the highest scores. The average level 4 and level 6 character is legendary while the average level 3 and level 5 character is heroic. But very few characters have their full 20 adventures completed yet. If we look only at characters with 20+ adventures recorded, level 3-4 are legendary, level 6 is mythic, and there are no level 5s with all 20 adventures yet. That is with the new levels, btw, after the +5 bump is considered. You could make a strong case that a further bump at those levels will be needed, but I want to wait for more data before making that conclusion. |
Dragon Masters
5/18/2012 10:01:16 AM | There is a flaw in the more adventures meaning more chance of death. As equipment/money improves, it means that lower level characters will start becoming equipped like the higher level ones that dont seem to be dieing off very fast. As a side note. I have yet to see a death above level 5 in the opening screen as well. I dont know about others, but I wouldnt care WHAT their rating was, as long as I kept them alive. Sending someone in that couldnt be hit with the low level characters and tank would make low level character advancement easier. Only thing you really have to concern yourself with on the higher level characters is getting enough money for day changes. Face it. How long it takes to get that high, means people ARENT gonna let them die easily. |
Dragon Masters
5/18/2012 10:04:46 PM | I put that up when i realized that all the stuff put in already isnt gonna do much to motivate most people into risking the higher level characters, especially if they make more then enough money in other ventures. I did run my level 2's thru a normal dungeon and immediate got caught by 4 monster groups and could not move the weak characters out of the way of having 3 sets be able to hit them for a few rounds. It was by shear luck that they didnt die. It took using the only character that had a defense of 76 doing hit and runs on the creatures to finally kill the enemy. These are the no gold recruits. It made me realize that if that is a normal fight, I will stick with the low adventures until all the characters get into the 90+ defense. If it takes 2000 runs, well as long as no one gets hit bad, then so be it. Also seems that all characters need to be fighter types or wizards, with trade skills as back up, since yeomen seem to be too weak to run as anything but fodder. This could be just my experience with the game. Wouldnt suprise me if it was. |
WarWorld
5/19/2012 7:06:12 PM | Well at least Legion should be happy since I losing higher level characters due to the recent changes. |
Dragon Masters
5/21/2012 8:41:13 PM | Thought had struck me and hurt. If the game automatically increases the level of difficulty depending on the number of characters running the adventure, why do you need outside encouragement to run harder adventures such as the hero rating? Running into an orc fighter with 5 characters, all of whom have garbage stats/equipment, shouldnt be considered easy for level 1 characters. Yet, it is. Especially if they have just got nailed from restless bones or such. Just curious on this one. |
Dragon Masters
5/30/2012 9:52:45 PM | What is the actual difference between an introductory adventure and a mythical one? Is it just the number of monsters? Bigger groups of them? |
5/31/2012 11:20:21 PM | did the adventures just get MUCH harder? because it seems that i cant flee - a hard level 8 is now DEADLY to much of my party - the group that i formed last night that has worked for over a week - now suddenly is no longer a valid group - meh. |
WarWorld
6/1/2012 1:34:48 AM | Dark cloud fatigue could be a part of why it getting harder.
Dm I don't think it impacts the adventure just the xp you skill ups you can get from it. |