Current thread: Mythic forums > Strategy & Advice > holy bad idea batman...
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| Author | Message |
5/19/2012 5:25:35 PM | i pushed the random adventure button... then did not flee right away... then noticed the it was a level 16 deadly adventure... then said "aw heck, i have 35 characters here, why wouldn't i be able to make it through..." yeah, not so much... |
WarWorld
5/19/2012 6:30:25 PM | will another great character dead. Seems I the only person losing high level chars due to the recent changes. |
Dragon Masters
5/19/2012 8:26:16 PM | Because silverlode, you, like me, have not figured out how to get characters into the 100+ defense range with 10+ attack? Seems that once I start getting decent armor/weapons, the duration monster eats them up. Now maybe it requires hiding behind a wall and moving some of the 20+ characters around, so the freshest ones are in melee range of the monsters. Another possibility is that the you are the only one using the higher levels characters. Still havent seen a level 6 die. Lots of summoned level 5's. |
WarWorld
5/20/2012 5:02:47 AM | Maybe, I try to go for attack speed so my chars get their attacks in first. Also I seems I can't handle large mulit group adventures. Final point I get very frustrated when only getting handful of XP per adventure when I do large numbers of characters. |
Clappendectomy
5/20/2012 7:32:33 AM | Silver, I haven't had that experience with multigroup adventures. I've found I can get pretty good xp return on them. In the most extreme case I ran a mythic with 40 lvl 5-7 guys and they each got 300-600 xp at the end. That's my best xp payout ever, and I wouldn't want to (and couldn't) run a 40 person mythic every day, but I wouldn't dismiss multigroup adventures because of xp limitations.
In response to DM, above... after sorting my clan by defense on the people page, the lowest lvl guy with 100+ defense is a level 6. I don't seem to ever sustain a 100+ defense 10+ attack guy at level 5 or lower, but once they get high enough level some build enough skills and money to get there.
DC--That sucks about your random 16 deadly. I admire the courage of people who regularly run randoms. There's a lot that can go wrong. |
Dragon Masters
5/20/2012 9:42:24 AM | Every single game that is like this all seems to come down to one simple fact. If they cannt hit you, you will eventually win. Armor or defense has been a major key in games like this. Big groups can be a good thing since you can move around hurt people (if you have the room), and if the monsters get into the right position, have lots of attacks on them, hopefully bringing them down quickly. Having to run more adventures for the xp bites, but if they stay alive longer, I guess thats whats needed. The issue dark cloud had is why I stopped with the random. It was also the reason I had an issue with the random levels when hitting the normal start button. |
Legion
5/20/2012 9:55:10 AM | I feel like I should chime in as a player ...
I just loaded up a random dangerous 17, with 21 level 3 characters in 4 groups. 4 monster groups are visible on the start and its a REALLY bad scenario. It will definitely take a ton of skill to get out of this mess without losses, and some luck too. But thats fine, even if I lose a guy or two thats a price I'm happy to pay for the success that comes w/adventures like this.
Cuz like clappy said, I really have to disagree with silver here. The xp you get from these massive adventures is so huge. Sure it gets split 21 ways, but we're talking about xp from a deadly 17, which is so much for level 3s. If I finish this adventure (rather than flee) I'll let you know how many xp my guys got. I'm sure you'll agree it was a lot, and worth it even if someone dies.
About the attack/defense/damage/speed comparisons that Dragon and Clappy make; I'd like to chime in on that too. There are MANY viable ways of arranging those stats. I'm looking over data here for level 5-7 characters, from clans that have 10+ of them. Without a doubt, the best group here is Clan Grey with an average CV of 150 for his 41 characters in that range. He also has the highest avg defense (107). The lowest avg CV (by far, interestingly) is Legion, with an avg CV of just 40. Ironically I have the second highest average defense (104). As a point of interest, all players in the list average over +10 attack, althouth clappy (10.3) and legion (11.8) barely make that cut.
Basically I'm seeing that the +10A 100D combo is possible to average in a large group of level 5-7 characters, but barely, and it might not be necessarily a good goal to aim for. Clappy and Sardonic are both very successful and they average defenses of 95 and 90, respectively, for their level 5-7s. One more thing that stood out from that group is speed. Two clans average really fast speeds (greyskull and silverlode), both well over +6 on average. And two clans average very low speeds (clappy and legion) both at about +1.1. Everyone else is basically clustered in somewhere near +4 speed. Interestingly, silverlode and greyskull seem to have troubles moving large numbers of guys past those levels, while clappy and legion both march thru them steadily (despite the fact that I lose a lot and clappy doesn't .. we both graduate lots of guys thru those levels). This seems somewhat counterintuitive to me -- you would think faster guys would perform better. But I wonder if trying to build up really high speeds hinders their performance in other areas, or leads to too much fatigue. Anyway I thought I should point it out, since it was the most surprising and contrasting stat I could see. Oh. One more really standout stat. Everyone has an average damage in the 11-15 range except clappy, with an average damage of less than 9.
For more useful info for lower level guys, here is some data for lvl 3-4 characters. Looking at attack and defense combos, they are all over the place. Legion has the best defense at -4A 81D. Silverlode has the best attack at +14A 69D. Clan Grey is (+13A 71D) and Clappy is (-8A 79D). PiGuys is (-2A 66D). Again speed is extremely tightly grouped (in the 0-2 range) with only one exception this time which is again silverlode at over +5. I wish I knew how you did that, silver, that is a stellar speed at that level and you have the highest attack too! Anyway, its worth pointing out to Dragon Masters that no one is anywhere close to averaging defense 100+ and attack 10+ with level 3-4 characters.
edit: I was able to maneuver my guys into a spot where only 1 monster group could hit me (tho FOUR other groups could if they moved just1 square!). We cast fog of escape and fled under fire. Everyone escaped. I was a little lucky, but recognizing the danger, deciding to flee from turn 0, swapping weapons to fist or fast knives (where possible) to get my speeds up, taking time to cast fog of escape (or if I'd been able, put up walls) and maneuvering to keep the right monsters in the right places bought me time to get lucky. Like I said, I would have been happy with 1-2 losses there, but luckily had none. At higher level you have even more fleeing help available with strategic tanking, blur/invisibility spells and potions, more +flee items such as coward bracelets, and summoning/charming decoy creatures or taking the time to whittle adjacent groups to just a few monsters to buffer your guys from larger hordes. That is just to name a few, I'm sure you could all add a dozen more tricks to successfully fleeing. This is a game of skill, and there is even skill to fleeing well! |
Dragon Masters
5/20/2012 4:24:26 PM | Interesting to see the stats. I was using those number as an example. All the games I have played have been like that, a good defense won out over almost anything else. None had the fatigue in them to modify the stats though. Now as for running 21 characters, I guess thats where im making the big mistake. I rarely run more then say 10. Think most the time I run like 7. Just curious, but people can afford things like fleeing potions and such? I believe i have only 1 wizard that can cast anything. So I guess not knowing the ins and outs makes me do things the hardest way known to gamers. |
WarWorld
5/21/2012 12:30:35 PM | 21 characters?!!! 40 characters?!! Ok so I see what I am doing wrong. I don't know if I can run that many of keep track of who has what spells or even if I have leaders for that amount. ( how the hell can you see their damage with that many?
I like DM running maybe in the teens for characters. If you have to run that many character to get that effect I think that is a serious playablity issue. IMO.
Not to mention I don't have enough magic casters/healers to run such groups. Nor the cash to buy potions to cover this lack.
This information explains alot and severally dampness my enjoyment of the game knowing I have to risk alot to get any sort of serious XP. |
Dark Realm
5/21/2012 2:10:57 PM | some of the things you are mentioning actually could end up the opposite. instead of a blanaced party with magic users cleric tanks archers...you could redo groups with a large tank group out front secondary group with archers and magicusers and third group with healers. then between monsters you add and minus people from groups to heal them ...it takes alot longer but once you get the hang of it it works alot better. i too prefer the 1 group party but sometimes have to go multi group... |
Sardonic
5/21/2012 3:37:48 PM | My main group that I run is 13 characters doing Dangerous lvl 24-26's. You just gotta be careful and be willing to have adventures go into the 400+ turns range. Sorry to hear about your guys DC. |
5/21/2012 4:50:59 PM | trimming the fat... trimming the fat...
it has been a LONG time since i really got into playing this game - there have been a BUNCH of changes... just getting used to them :) |
WarWorld
5/21/2012 6:13:50 PM | Or grey when things go to pot the few decent healers and magic users will be lost. |
WarWorld
5/21/2012 6:14:56 PM | Legion feel free to see how you would group my characters into a super group. |
Clappendectomy
5/21/2012 6:29:06 PM | Silver,
The 40 person adventure I mentioned was 3 groups. Arranging your "super group" is part of the strategy. There are lots of ways to do this. You can try to form balanced groups (healers, tanks, damage dealers, casters in each one) or break them up as Clan Grey suggested above. I don't think anyone has enough good guys that they will have everything they would like in every group. Coming up with a way to group your guys to take advantage of their strengths is definitely part of the challenge of MW. Unless you are running randoms. Then the challenge is knowing when and how to flee :)
Another key here is identifying the weaknesses in your clan and working over the longer term to address those. If you don't have leaders, or tanks, or healers, or whatever, that should become a priority as you develop new chars.
It took me a bit to get into it, but the big 40 person 3 group mega-hard adventures are by far the most fun for me now. They are ALWAYS exciting. Rewarding, too, if you can pull one off. A Dangerous adventure with 40 people in it will pay off, in xp and in cash, if you manage to clear it. Which is admittedly not always easy.
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Canuckistan
5/21/2012 8:09:07 PM | wow, that's a lot of characters to take on adventures! I only have 45-60 characters (depends on how many die that day) and that ranges from lvl 1 to lvl 4 and usually the largest multi-groups will be around 10 characters before the warning about XP levels pops up. With this new hero status penalties combined with XP level penalties, it makes it that much harder for the smaller clans to grow and have large groups that you are referring to for the high XP gains.
As far as understanding what the "weaknesses" in your clan are, I would hazard a number of us don't really know what the different skills progress to so would not have a great way of planning for making the changes in the clan to make up for the weaknesses.
I enjoy the game and will continue playing but hope the senior players will keep this in mind for how some players may get frustrated in gaining experience in the game :) |
Clappendectomy
5/21/2012 8:49:05 PM | Hi Pi.
I should say right off that I totally ignore the XP level warning that pops up. I'd say 2/3 of my adventures trigger that. I'm hoping that the new hero status system, which definitely slows down progress for now since everyone got started at Cautious, will eventually not significantly slow things down for lower level chars and newer clans. Hopefully it's just a matter of things equilibrating so people have Brave or Heroic guys. It would be a shame if it slowed down the progress of the newer/weaker clans. As far as understanding clan "weaknesses", mostly what I mean by that is recognizing what you wish you had more of and being proactive about developing it in the lower level junior adventurers you have coming up through the system. The main things *I* feel like I need are, in approximate order of importance
leaders
healers
tanks
enchanters
melee damage dealers
area damage dealers (for me this is fire and water)
misc magicians (nature, demon, communication, etc.)
archers
But like people are always saying, there are lots of ways to run a clan. One thing I'd say I have done differently is that compared to others I have underinvested in recruiting. My guys are not nearly as good as, say, Silverlode's in terms of raw stats, because the majority of them were recruited for under 1g. Every penny you spend on recruits comes right out of your guys' pockets, and to me it is very important to keep my guys alive. If they have money, they can equip themselves better and be safer and more effective. Again, everyone does it differently.
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Dragon Masters
5/21/2012 9:47:39 PM | Well having some sort of information on what skills do what, and will help get what skills would be nice. 40 characters in 3 groups is a little beyond the ones I got. I might be lucky to get 5 into a group. Now identifying the weaknesses in the clans, well thats easy. Low stats from no gold recruiting, along with cruddy skills that seem to elude me, as well as the trying to protect the weak characters when no matter where I put them in the party end up being in the middle of the enemy's best seems to counter getting anywhere. But that is my experience. I know I tend to have the rng play with me, so live with it. Another issue I seem to have is the monsters that should be in higher levels showing up in the lower ones more and more often. Also found out not to run new characters with high level ones and finish an adventure. They get stuck at close to the level of the higher ones, even though they have run only one adventure with them. Wow, having little money bites when trying to get recruits up to form big parties when you first start. Its costing an arm and a leg to get a few after you have several xp levels going. Would be nice if the tradesmen would actually make something instead of doing nothing when you dont take them out. Full time left when day change and nothing. Nice to see how others run adventures. Havent had much luck running them my way. |
Sardonic
5/22/2012 3:46:55 PM | Just incase this bit of info has eluded some, let me share one of the small things that when paid full attention and care to, makes life easier.
Grouping characters together based on alignment allows for much bigger groups. |
Canuckistan
5/22/2012 4:40:12 PM | Thanks Clapp - i definitely do play it a bit different than most of the others in that i rarely spend money on equipment and use it to support daychanges for healing. Some of the characters at lvl 3 have 1000+ coins but wear cotton armor and use a whip :)
O use whatever I pick up on the adventures that they can use so very eclectic equipment on the characters. Only ones I buy for are occasional healing potions and ammo for the rare "archers/slingers" clan member.
Since i don't spend the money on equipment, it does build for the clan so I spend .8 gold about every 4th recruit - does not mean they are any more likely to survive with my playing style but some make it! I was rooting for the nice ninja I got but he did only get 2hp so wasn't destined to make it to lvl 2 :)
Archers and Wizards are the two more common types that i have a horrible living rate with -likely as I don't find wizards very useful with low hp and no spells, and archers are not as much use when using small groups (i.e. tend to get stuck in close combat)
And Sardonic - a very useful hint for those that had not realized how much the alignment counts in reducing space per clan member in a group |
WarWorld
5/22/2012 5:13:29 PM | Thanks for advice but since you don't findout a players skills until level 3 hard to address the issue until you get characters to that level. Which has gotten harder now to do, imo which the hero level as well as making healers harder to get. Of course if you managed to save old ones you ahead of the game. |
Dark Realm
5/22/2012 6:45:42 PM | ive actually found archers overpowered at low levels...just because if you are willing to move fire..move fire alot of the times you can get enemy groups that just sit there getting arrowed. i will use up every arrow i have to soften up a enemy group even restless bones that might take 0,0,0, 1 damage on 4 hits. i will move out of sight to and click several rounds away hoping they move off down a corridor and i can come back and fire a few arrows again. another often overlooked little combat tip is unless the enemy has spellcasters or missle fire..let them come to you. they will use up most of there actions on the way over and you might get in a few free swings...the reverse is true if you charge after a enemy group you will notice you might not get in several of your own attacks (something those of us that have played a while do automatically without even thinking) |
Clappendectomy
5/22/2012 8:33:00 PM | silver,
nothing has changed in ages with respect to uncovering skills. identify what you need, look for individuals that can learn that skill, and train them. it's not rocket science.
healing is harder to come by cheaply now, which just means you need to prioritize it more. it's not hard to find a guy with the heal skill. any cleric can learn it. they may not be prodigies, but they can certainly be serviceable. i am quite sure Clappendectomy has healing capabilities well in excess of most clans, and my top two healers have Life 5 (with 112 pts required for Life 6) and Life 6 (with 126 pts required for Life 7). these are perfectly respectable, and they have taken my clan a long way, but they are not exceptional or unattainable, even under the current system. in fact, my low level healers will be far superior if they live themselves to level 7 or 8. i augmented my top healers' natural skills with bracelets once i could afford them (around lvl 5 or 6), and they have been keeping the clan afloat for ages.
your guys are, on average, superior to mine in terms of stats and have plenty of aptitude. you have chosen not to train any of them as leaders, as far as i can tell, and you have very few tanks, healers, or casters. this is a fine choice, there are lots of ways to play. but i just don't think it makes sense for you to say that the same methods that have helped me and others build our clans are somehow inapplicable to yours. if you need a healer, recruit a cleric and train him in life magic. if you need a tank recruit a grunt and train her in tanking. if you need a leader, select one of your many guys who has uncovered the Leadership skill (accessible via Mental Aptitude) who has a decent charisma, and train him as a leader. you tend to train offensive and weapon skills, which is why your clan is SO superior to everyone else's offensively, as Legion's post above shows. that's fine. but there are other ways to do it, even if players don't know all their skills at level 3 (or 6, or 8). you can take or leave the advice you get, but i think you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you think it somehow doesn't apply to your clan.
Clapp |
Clappendectomy
5/22/2012 8:42:54 PM | sard--
excellent point about alignment. |
WarWorld
5/22/2012 9:43:55 PM | Clappendectomy, I don't understand your point, are you saying if I need a leader I should just save the points until I get enough to level them in leadership even though there maybe other skills they can develop in the mean time? THanks on the mental aptitude tip did not know that. |
Dragon Masters
5/22/2012 10:23:07 PM | Now that we know part of what gives the leadership skills, I can look into that direction. Remember. Not everyone that plays knows the skills list inside and out. I didnt know the tank skill did more then just defend. Finally tried it, but it only works for the group they are in. The alignment thing is good to know, but not everyone can be picky about what the next characters alignment is. I dont have the money making aspect down at all. I would like to know how many of the top characters came from membership. Not knocking any of them, just curious how much the double skill points have changed how people make characters. |
Clappendectomy
5/23/2012 6:06:26 AM | >>are you saying if I need a leader I should just save the points until I get enough to level them in leadership even though there maybe other skills they can develop in the mean time?
exactly. |
Sardonic
5/23/2012 6:52:37 AM | It may be a harder thing to do for starting clans, but I have found it very useful to not always throw my new recruit into the mix right away. I will usually wait for 3 or 4 others in the same alignment to come along and then adventure them all together. It seriously reduces losses and allows you to run more adventures per dc on average. |
Clappendectomy
5/23/2012 7:45:05 AM | agree with sard |
WarWorld
5/23/2012 5:07:00 PM | What does tanking do?
And would be nice to have these tidbits posted somewhere.
And I must disagree Clap with the saving of points at least for now. |
Legion
5/23/2012 6:05:32 PM | seriously?
You can hover over any skill to see the descriptions, for tank it says "learn to focus enemy attacks on yourself, rather than teammates."
I hope I'm not wasting my time when I write help files, but I have to wonder. Of the five help files in the help section, three of them specifically talk about tanking, making it one of the best-covered topics. For example:
Tank: Tank is a special method of attacking only available to characters with the tank skill. When tank is set, the character will attack exactly as if attack had been selected. However in addition, the tanking character will attempt to protect the party by standing in front and blocking the enemy from hitting the rest of the characters. You will notice messages in the results panel indicating when tanking has been successful. Note that characters with low willpower attributes will not try to tank when injured, even if so instructed. Having several characters using high tank skills is the best way to protect vulnerable low-HP characters.
or, in another help file:
Tank: tank enables a special mode of attack, tank. When tank is selected, your character will attack normally. However, he or she will also attempt to stand in front of the group and become the target for every enemy attack. How often a character succeeds at this depends on the level of the tank skill. It is absolutely critical to have characters with tanking skills (ideally many characters with high levels in tank) to defend those with fewer hit points such as your wizards. At low levels a single point in tank on one or two characters might not seem like much, but as your parties grow in size and the total number of tank points in the party increases, you will see almost every incoming attack will be directed against a tank. Accordingly, it can be very hard to get wizards and other low hit-point characters to advance beyond the initial levels because of a lack of tanks, while at higher level you have a lot more flexibility in dictating where the incoming attacks will be targeted.
or in the third ....
Tanking is another critical skill, and in some cases is far more important than healing. Every character with a decent defense score and/or HP should probably have at least one level of tank when available. If a group contains any low-HP characters, it is absolutely essential that you have all the other characters tanking to protect them. Even a group without any low-HP or low-defense characters will have a better survival rate if everyone can tank. When a character becomes injured, he can stop tanking, and all the other tankers will prevent the injured character from being attacked and will allow him to drink potions, change equipment, or even flee without needing to worry about being killed. Even low level groups should have a few points of tanking skills in them, and higher level groups will certainly want multiple characters with tanking skill levels to ensure that you have the flexibility to protect anyone that needs protecting without risking death or needing to flee. Adequate tanking will allow you to step up to higher level adventures without much risk, and as always the higher level the adventures you can complete, the more successful your clan will be.
All other skills are secondary to tanking, healing, and of course (as mentioned above) leadership.
Tanking is also mentioned in 32 forum posts including pretty much every single one that addresses hints for beginners or party survivability. I was going to list links to them, but there are too many.
I hope this is helpful. I don't really know where else we can put that info so that people find it. |
Dragon Masters
5/23/2012 10:35:37 PM | No offense dark cloud, but your 2 deaths are the first ones I have seen that were above level 5. I didnt think it would ever happen. I was begining to think that characters of that level were made up to make people think you could get somewheres :) |
WarWorld
5/24/2012 9:39:43 AM | Sorry have not seen the help files. I thought that he was talking about something out. |
Canuckistan
5/24/2012 8:04:59 PM | Legion - i am very grateful for the floating info :)
As for the info in forum posts - it is useful if you know where to look or how to look fo rthe info. If it is not a lot of trouble to do, perhaps a search feature using keyword search could be done for the forums? |
5/25/2012 8:13:31 AM | non taken - after a Clan date of: year 3 day 232 it is time for me to start over with dark cloud - the hgher level people were making me Very top heavy - and now after i got rid of them i see a different way to go about the clan and am whittling down so to say - maybe to just a few - maybe to start completely over. |